Curse

cce · Apr 22, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I am a member of the design team, a member of the company that made the game that you play.

Thank you. I think the changes (with the last modification) are absolutely brilliant. I'd make a few tweaks and suggest a weapons-mod trader:

* slightly increase the drop rate of gold so that buying skills, armour from crafters, and weapons from crafters is a bit more affordable

* slightly increase the threshold for something to be "purple"; most of the purple drops I get arn't worth salvaging and hence are effectively gold at the merchant

* change rune and dye drop coloring to be based on the current market price; if it's worth more then $250, make it purple, if it is worth 1k or more, make it gold

* add a trader for weapon modifiers, use the above price-based scheme for weapons (if the salvage value of a weapon is greater than $250, it is purple; if the salvage value of it is greater than 1k, it is gold).

But the farming change is seriously welcome. Before this nerf, average, high-profit margin "weekend" players (we buy extensions, but don't play much), are at a severe disadvantage getting the equipment we need for our heros. Buying golds/greens costs $$, buying skill signets costs $$, buying runes (esp vigor runes) costs $$.

I look forward to things getting a bit less expensive for us casual players. Also, thanks for _not_ nerfing green farming -- I actually dot this on occassion. Frankly, when I am farming I find selling all the loot to be, well, tedious. So, thanks for nerfing it. I'm just after golds/greens.

Cheers

FoxBat · Apr 22, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomen Mendax

But that (the bit of your post I put in bold) is half the point of the complaints.

Fair enough, discuss that and lets try to get others on the same page.

Quote:

- this means that the casual player who wants to buy 15K armour or lots of skills is still going to find it hard to do so, and

Why does 15k armor costs 15k, and not 1.5k? What kind of "average joe" is amassing 100+ plat for armor anyway?

I'd say I would like skills to be 500g and have been for a while, though I'm not sure how well these skill tomes will pan out yet. Upping the drop rates on those could be another solution.

Quote:

- will have some unknown effect on the economy, as has been pointed out the hardcore "expert farmers" playing on hard mode can still make lots of money so we don't really know how the amount of money in the system will be affected.

Maybe you don't know, but me and Anet are betting that more rares = chaper rares = these guys will be making less money after everyone and their pet is flooded with them. The one potential problem is that chests may become near worthless if average rare value drops below lockpicks. (Or only worthwhile for those with high treasure hunter)

Other than that, I imagine it would probably be extra work for them to code normal monsters to drop two or more items in parties, as opposed to their current one max. AFAIK hard mode simply increases the quality of dropped weapons, not the frequency of any kind of drop. I suppose they could just make the gold piles bigger, but they are probably trying to get away from items being worth over 100k.

Pkest · Apr 22, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Yeah I doubt anyone is still listening, but I'll make a suggestion anyway.

How about adding salvageable armor and collectible drops back into the exempt list. I think that would take some pressure off the casual farmers who used to farm to get enough to buy basics but still wouldn't add much cash into the system.

I might still farm vermin on occasion if I knew I would still get the vermin hides to salvage for scale etc. I think material prices and rune prices are going to rise under this system which will ultimately hurt all the casual players.

As it is a fun part of the game is gone for me now. Poof. I know I could go farm gems or ectos but I have no use for those things so I probably won't.

I did enjoy trying to farm critters in areas as my toons reached new places. Partly for the challenge but also for the drops. I won't bother doing that anymore under the change so yes one aspect of the game that was challenging and fun and gave me a reason to try new builds and acquire new skills is gone.

edit: I'm also concerned with the 'lack of elegance' of recent changes. ie changes that don't make any logical sense in the game. Soul reaping only working every 5 seconds was the first and now monsters deciding what to drop based on the size of the party. I'm all for suspending disbelief and all for the sake of entertainment but it's really starting to get ridiculous and impossible.

Mandarista · Apr 22, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

I am not a solo farmer.
I never have been.
I simply like to play the game with just myself, or a small group of friends.
That is why I'm so upset about the issue.

Solo farmers do something percieved as "wrong", and everyone else must suffer the consequences.
Sorry folks, I'm just not a fan of collective punishment.

I don't intentionally try to scam anyone, as I rarely trade with players and instead just sell to the merchant.
That's why I'm hit harder than some others for the fact that all the "common" loot and gold drops are what have been affected the most.
I do not farm for greens, or ectos, or shards, or the few other things on their exempt list.

If they really wanted to somehow help poorer players get on even grounds with the rich, they ought to get rid of the games miserable excuse for an economy once and for all.

Add trader NPCs for every type of item and give every item a fixed price.
Stop having merchants buy at 1/100th the value of an item from players.
Add more gold drops to ensure everyone has enough money to get anything at all they need or want.

Granted it would wreak havoc with players at first, but think of it this way:
If anyone can afford anything, there would be no need to farm in the first place.
Players who "play the economy" for personal gain wouldn't need to, since they would already be maxed out on gold as well.
And botting for cash to sell to players would be useless as everyone would be considered "filthy stinking rich" and wouldn't need to buy anyway.

Personally, destroying the economy in that way would make me far happier than the current "grind wars" nonsense they've got now.
And it certainly isn't any worse of a fix, judging by so many complaints here.

One of GWs main attractions initially was that it was relatively grind-free.
At first, it was relatively easy to obtain even rare items for cheap.
Maybe it's simply a case of nostalgia, or maybe there's some truth to it, but it seemed like there were far less scammers and far friendlier players pretty much everywhere.
I'd never heard the term "WTS 100k+ectos" until after I'd been playing a fairly long time.
Whether it was player farmers or bots that slowly caused prices to head up, up, and away is really moot as far as I'm concerned.
If NPC traders sold everything at fixed prices, no one would be "scammed" for anything, since they wouldn't need to buy from other players.
And no one would be too poor to afford 100k+ectos items because, at fixed prices, they wouldn't ever cost 100k+ectos.

For the players that want to play the "trading game" stock market: go to Wall street.
Most people play games to escape the real world, not to emulate its economic inequalities.

Edit: For those who think a neverending supply of money would somehow devalue all the "l33t" gear, why not make some items attainable by some of the harder missions?
Instead of every 15k armor just being sold at the merchant in town, make all the 15k armorers someplace you have to really work to get to, like the FOW crafter or the Bone palace.
You could have 15k luxon and kruzik armorers at the end of the elite missions.

Leave greens on a "drops only" basis, but have weaponsmiths that will sell unique modded weapons (something the equivelent of the more sought after golds) somewhere hidden in far off corners of places like the ring of fire, the jade sea, echovald forest, the desolation, and the realm of torment.
That way, players could still have a guaranteed return for all their effort, but they'd have to work much harder at it, rather than just walking up to the guy behind the xunlai agent in town.

And for the love of god, add skillquests back in.
They would definately help new players or new chars.
If you don't already have skills for their profession unlocked on your account, not even skill tomes will help.

Apologies for the long-winded post.

annih1lator · Apr 22, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

i DO like this dev update.......the only thing that totally freaked me out was to implement a new 15k armor.the first thing i thought (before i tried to farm gold for that armor) was: "oh nice...one 15k more for my collection";well,so i changed to my ele to farm a well-known spider in nf and got some (i.e. 2) drops and that was already in HM, so i repeated that run in NM and got three drops.what i want to say is that it's a really good idea to try to force players to sell their loot to other players;the only problem is you can't sell stuff if there is no actual loot not to speak about that trade-channel-spamming in towns/outposts.
otherwise it's a nice dev update

cce · Apr 22, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandarista

Solo farmers do something percieved as "wrong", and everyone else must suffer the consequences.
Sorry folks, I'm just not a fan of collective punishment.

I just don't see these changes as "punishment". ArenaNet is trying to fix an economy which is extremely unfavorable to casual users. Last month I even considered *buying* gold so that I could outfit my heros. Casual players don't necessary have to "have" expensive armour, but they should be able to outfit their heros with minor runes, a max weapon, and such things like this. Currently this is quite difficult since the value of gold is inflated - due to farming.

The first update was poor, but the change since then, to not scale drops of greens, ectos, etc. helps accomplish this. By not flooding the economy with "worthless" drops that are essentially gold and with lots of gold, it's going to increase the value of gold's buying power. That means, the price of greens (which will still be plentiful due to the drops) and other elite goods should fall and become more available to the casual player who only has a few plat.

I see it as good solid economics. It makes sense.

Liberations · Apr 22, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Firstly I'd like to apologize to Gaile, as she is only doing her job and we should probably be more angry at the Devs themselves, if no one else.

Which brings my next step into the spotlight, to destroy this controversy once and for all:

I'm going to create an extensive farming expediation and I will show what I have gained via screenshot during the run and after it, leaving proof, proof, and more proof to find the real truth to this overwhelming nosense.

Stay tuned!

Nomen Mendax · Apr 22, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Fair enough, discuss that and lets try to get others on the same page.

...

I'd say I would like skills to be 500g and have been for a while, though I'm not sure how well these skill tomes will pan out yet. Upping the drop rates on those could be another solution.

Agreed, except I'm not bothered one way or the other about skill tomes as I doubt I'll be seeing them (they are in hard mode, right?)

Quote:

Maybe you don't know, but me and Anet are betting that more rares = chaper rares = these guys will be making less money after everyone and their pet is flooded with them. The one potential problem is that chests may become near worthless if average rare value drops below lockpicks. (Or only worthwhile for those with high treasure hunter)

Sure, that's your opinion (and ANet's I guess). You could well be right but any economy, even virtual ones are really hard to predict. But again, the way they've chosen to fix it punishes one group of people (the middle class, I suppose, if you wanted to get political about it).

Quote:

Other than that, I imagine it would probably be extra work for them to code normal monsters to drop two or more items in parties, as opposed to their current one max.

We don't know, I can't see why it would be harder than reducing the drop rate for solo farmers. But without seeing the code there is no point in speculating either way.

As I've said before, the solution ANet have chosen seems designed to annoy one segment of their customer base. If the problems is that gold (and other rare items) are "too expensive" then I think there are much better solutions to the one they've chosen.

This makes me wonder if the problem they are trying to solve, is not that they want more people to be able to afford rare items, but that they want less people to be able to afford them. But again, I really don't know.

Nomen Mendax · Apr 22, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberations

Firstly I'd like to apologize to Gaile, as she is only doing her job and we should probably be more angry at the Devs themselves, if no one else.

Which brings my next step into the spotlight, to destroy this controversy once and for all:

I'm going to create an extensive farming expediation and I will show what I have gained via screenshot during the run and after it, leaving proof, proof, and more proof to find the real truth to this overwhelming nosense.

Stay tuned!

OK, but don't do it in hard mode, as that is not what I (and I think most of the other people) are complaining about.

Calen The Civl · Apr 22, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Now I know this idea would through many players into a tizzy:

Why not cap the amount of gold the game can generate? Currently, the monetary system is akin to the a nation's treasury continually printing new bills. As more bills flood the economy, the value of the bills decrease. Think about the depressions various nations have had where a wheel barrow full of cash can't even buy a loaf of bread. The Guild Wars economy along with other MMo's is similar because gold is in excess and constantly minted. It also does not have any backing value.

Now such a system would have a hoarding danger. However, I am sure code could be developed that would keep gold destruction and hording in check.

Implementing such a cap on gold amount would be difficult at first. All the gold hoarders could be charged a tax to keep the gold falling as the economy stabilizes.

Granted, the economy would resemble a socialist system until the lurches are finished if the cap is a fairly low number.

As a farmer, I have to admit I like the drop system change. I play the game for fun and prefer to play in teams with other people. It would be nice if there was a drop bonus of some type for teaming with players instead of npcs.

cce · Apr 22, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravengar Silvertree

Loot scaling effects the drop rate of common items, uncommon items, gold, and common materials.

The purpose was to limit the actual amount of new gold coins coming into the economy and causing inflation due to bots. It works exactly like they say it does.

Currently, with bots running like crazy despite repeated nerfs, gold is accumulating in surplus, and would drive up the price of items to astronomical levels through inflation. The update simply aims to balance the gold coming into the game with the gold leaving the game through money sinks. Gold is only a means of representing relative value, and a common trade medium. If you trade your axe for 30k, then trade that 30k for a sword, no money ever left the sytem, it stayed balanced. You have to look at the big picture.

Guild Wars has been in desperate need of a trade system since the start, and moreso now.

Lastly - Thank you ANET for the best update I've seen since I started playing two years ago.

Re-posted since it is a great summary.

Mugsy Siegel · Apr 22, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

I really don't see how this update is just a "minor adjustment", it not just affects the hardcore solo-farmers, but those casual gamers as well. The Reason us single minded individuals only care about ourselves is, well, Solo-farming was pretty much the only way to make a decent amount of money, and we are sorry that we wanted to do that farming in order to aqquire those armors that gave you a sort of status symbol (or because you needed a change).

I Agree that the bots have to go. But i too also see this as a way to not just punish the bots, but everyone as well. and besides, when somebody does figure out a build to easily kill monsters in one hard mode zone, and the bots start doing that, Anet will simply apply the same plan they do to all overfarmed zones, they add skills to those group of monsters or one particular monster that can easily counter your build.

If they do want to fix the economy, don't make it more frustrating for the people that are pretty much done with the campaigns and wish to simply make money so they can enjoy the other things, like armor or weapons for instance.

I admit, i farmed many areas, the last time i farmed was in Pongmey Valley for several days just to make 20k a day and at least 4 golds, and i slowly, but surely, made good money. then they put Dragon Moss just to make the build i used innefective. i went into both the European server and American server in Maatu keep before this update, and there were mostly bots populating these areas (more in the European server), which leads me to beleive they only want these updates to affect bots.

reetkever · Apr 22, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnai

NO IM NOT JOKING! I've farmed in both normal and hard mode. Its far from bad, in fact, its alot better. All my old farming spots have net me alot more(and better) drops than i've ever gotten.

And if you honestly believe that all the artards posting and crying about the "nerf" have actually TRIED farming, well....i don't want to go into personal attacks...

You have to understand, if one person crys foul, a lot of people like to do the same, before they even know if its true or not.

For you and all other people claiming to get more drops from solo farming than before, your location and build please, also post some pictures of the farm run, with in the textbox your drops. Don't go around posting stuff without having any proof at all (except dropping some items in a PvP area and saying you got it in 5 mins.)

I've tried all my old farm builds, from Trolls to Jade Brotherhood, and from Vermins to Snake Dance. Only Snake Dance got me more than 500 gold, but that's because the crazy amount of monsters I kill there by myself. Snake Dance netted me about 10K, which used to be over a 100K before Nightfall came out.

silvershock · Apr 22, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by fog_of_redoubt

Yep, neat trick NOT... you just dropped all of your inventory. Wish you would have been disconnected.

Where are the MODS?? This is inflamatory, and an attepmt to cause trouble and induce even more arguments and flames.

If a Mod is gonna ban people for getting bent out of shape with Gaile, then they need to ban for this crap.

You have my word that I found those items in 1 farm trip. I dropped my inventory not as a trick, but in this area to prevent people from finding my original farming location. Dont believe me? You don't have 2.

Also, if I was disconnected, I could have reconnected and picked up the items. It seems obvious you don't have a clue what you are talking about, even your insults don't make any sense.

silvershock · Apr 22, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

That much? It might all still be the result of farming, but the picture looks like it's is on the Isle, with a Master of Winds in the background?

As mentioned before, i changed areas and dropped loot to prevent people from seeing where i farm.

reetkever · Apr 22, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvershock

As mentioned before, i changed areas and dropped loot to prevent people from seeing where i farm.

And is there any reason to hide where you're farming? Don't go showing off with something and throw with proof if you can't show it.

My guess is that you just did the Bergen-->ToA clearing.

The 5 minutes part is b/s, though. There were like 25 items there? And since you only get 1/8 of what you deserve, that means you killed (25*8) 200 monsters in 5 minutes? Well even more, cause the stacked bones were obtained from lots more Skeletons.

Mugsy Siegel · Apr 22, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvershock

You have my word that I found those items in 1 farm trip. I dropped my inventory not as a trick, but in this area to prevent people from finding my original farming location. Dont believe me? You don't have 2.

Also, if I was disconnected, I could have reconnected and picked up the items. It seems obvious you don't have a clue what you are talking about, even your insults don't make any sense.

Good call on not revealing your choice of farming location (although it kinda narrows it down because of the Orr armor drops) because if you did, bots would just flood the area and then anet will eventually screw up that zone, though ruining the botting activities, but also ruining your chance of getting anything worth of value there.

Yggdrasil · Apr 22, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

I kinda like the idea of limiting the amount of gold in the world, instead of having the monsters having a licence to print money. If that were implemented, there could be some sort of upkeep necessary to store over, say, 90 plat., i.e. an inverse interest on people who have crazy amounts of gold. Finding a balance which would allow us casual players to afford things w/o having to farm/grind like crazy would be quite difficult, and beyond my ability to help with. Maybe put in some interest for people who don't have much gold in the bank.

Possible tactics for economic control could come from other MMO's, like EVE online, which has a completely player-driven econ. (as I understand at least). Though, it also has a trade system, so it wouldn't be an apples-to-apples comparison.

Clone · Apr 22, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Well, I still think this is bullcrap, even with the things like greens and rare materials that have now been exempt. Whenever I needed to buy a skill, I could do a quick mino solo run at Elona Reach. There were no rare materials, no greens. Every once in a while you'd get a gold, but that wasn't the reason it was done. It was a quick way to fill up on your run of the mill white items, sell them to the merchant, and score a quick 1k.

Under the system we have now, the math just isn't right. If you work with a full party you get 1/8th of the loot. However, if you can do 8 times the work, you don't get any more? 8/8 = 1. 8/1 = 1. Having a system where both equations are true is idiotic.

Perhaps you might like the new system if you subscribe to the idea "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." I for one would be more willing to side with the likes of Adam Smith than Lenin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Smith

Every man, as long as he does not violate the laws of justice, is left perfectly free to pursue his own interest his own way, and to bring both his industry and capital into competition with those of any other man or order of men.

silvershock · Apr 22, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

And is there any reason to hide where you're farming? Don't go showing off with something and throw with proof if you can't show it.

My guess is that you just did the Bergen-->ToA clearing.

The 5 minutes part is b/s, though. There were like 25 items there? And since you only get 1/8 of what you deserve, that means you killed (25*8) 200 monsters in 5 minutes? Well even more, cause the stacked bones were obtained from lots more Skeletons.

* I killed around 50 monsters, mostly undead yes.

* You draw a wrong conclusion about where i farm.

* And lastly, I hide where I farm to prevent ArenaNet to 'rebalance' things. They prob won't, but i hate to take chances on this 1.